Mass migration of Sikhs into Europe began in the post war period where large numbers of migrant workers came to the UK to carry out the manual due to labour shortages. Mostly due to language and historical associations with the British Empire, much smaller numbers of Sikh settled in other European countries, most significantly, Germany, Holland and France. However, in the post 1984 period, we have seen a dramatic increase of Sikh migrants across Europe, from Greece in the East to Italy and Spain in the south and Norway and Sweden in the North, and the numbers keep rising. However, if Sikh migration into Europe has largely occurred under the radar of the Western media, this cannot be said in the case of Muslim entering Europe as refugees and asylum seekers.
The current media hysteria about recently arrived Muslims refugees from Syria and Afghanistan committing sexual harassment against young (white) women at festivals in Köln, Germany, and in the Swedish capital Stockholm has added fuel to the existing concern about non-Anglo Saxon immigration into Europe. No doubt, the subtext to these media moral panics is a latent racism that still harbours myths associating white Europeans with being ‘civilised’ and by comparison, people from the ‘East’ and ‘Africa’ as being less so. However, it would be simplistic to assume that the current crisis is simply a replay of past debates on inward immigration into Europe from the East. In today’s context of turmoil in the Middle East, the debate is set against against the backdrop of a genuine threat of Islamist fascism, in the guise of such groups as Alkaida, ISIS/Daeish, and their many offshoots.
Overlaying the very real and ongoing challenge of white western racism against minorities in Europe, amongst progressives there is a concern that within some of the minority communities, oppressive feudal practices and beliefs continue to persist, and that in some small or large ways these may be undermining the important progressive values of equality and liberty that have become a hallmark of modern European societies. Though one should not overestimate the extent to which migrants may actually be violating important principles such as respect for women, tolerance of different sexual preferences, rights for children, freedom of (non) belief and expression and so on, there are some grounds for concern that for some, regressive cultural attitudes from their host countries and cultures are being imported into Europe. In the UK for example, we have been grappling with the phenomena of Pakistani Muslim male gangs sexually grooming and abusing young girls, often under age and mostly but not exclusively, from white British backgrounds, leading to a string of prosecutions in places such as Oxford, Luton, Rotherham, Sheffield, Bradford and Manchester.
Putting aside the question as to whether certain migrant groups are over represented in these terrible crimes against women and children, there is a broader question that is being posed in relation to the problems with multiculturalist policies that give freedom, and in some instances encouragement, to minorities to preserve separate cultural identities and practices. And in this regard, though the current debate about immigration is framed within the preventing violent (Islamist) extremism and terrorism agenda, there has for sometime been pressure building to move towards an assimilationist policy approach that would require migrants to commit themselves to learn and adopt Western values and norms. Such suggestions have been criticised by some anti-racists that this is simply pandering to old fashioned racism that implies a superiority of white European cultural norms. However, the flaw with this position is the assumption that indeed values associated with liberty, freedom and equality are necessarily European.
No doubt there is a vast amount of historical literature testifying to how the European Enlightenment led to the establishment of a human rights culture that ultimately afforded sovereignty and liberty to the individual; the inspirational writing of philosophers such as Mills, Locke, Rousseau and Voltaire are a testament to this. However, if one looks at, for example, the Sikh tradition and the founding principles that were laid down by the Bhagat’s and Gurus well before the advent of the European Enlightenment, one can see equally powerful invocations for such things as gender equality, ending of race, religious and caste based bigotry and discrimination and a secular world view. Given that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) that was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 10 December 1948 has been signed by almost all the nations of the world, the reality is that European Enlightenment values are Universal values. They belong to each and every human being on the planet.
Though economically Sikhs have been very successful in becoming part of the fabric of their chosen country, this cannot be said of cultural integration. Indeed, for many Sikhs, the only time they will encounter native Europeans is in the workplace, school/college or in a store. Culturally as a community, Sikhs have tended to live quite separate lives with the Gurdwara serving as an important hub for the community to socialise, especially at weekends. However, against the backdrop of the growing crisis of immigration into Europe and the rise of right wing parities and thought, serious challenges confront Sikhs in terms of how they see their future.
Though Sikhs are not unfamiliar with the question of survival – Sikh history is littered with moments where Sikhi was seen to have been annihilated, only for it to reemerge even stronger – Sikhs are once again at a crossroads. However, there is one significant difference that has no parallel in Sikh history, and that is that by design or necessity, Sikhs are rapidly becoming a globally displaced people; almost a 25% of the Sikhs live outside the Punjab and the numbers are rising. The reasons for the exodus from the traditional heartlands of the pre and post partition Punjab, and to a lesser extent Afghanistan, are a complex mixture of colonialism/post-colonialism and the needs for migrant labour, state terrorism, and political upheavals in the region. However, the development of Sikh institutions is lagging behind these realities, meaning that in many places Sikhs are a rudderless nation.
This is resulting in two equally dangerous consequences. The first is a fragmentation of the Sikh Panth into factions, mostly linked to opportunistic cults (deras) that are exploiting the vulnerability of a community experiencing anomie or identity crisis. As observed earlier, one consequence of is a separation of Sikhs from host societies. The other and equally worrying thing is the dissolution and disappearance of Sikh identity through total assimilation into host societies. Both of these processes are symptomatic of either a lack of knowledge about Sikhi and/or huge deficits of confidence and self esteem.
The solution to this problem and to secure the future of the Sikh nation, it is reject both the cultists who talk about the corrupt nature of Western ‘Gora’ culture, and also the assimilationists who have little regard for their cultural and linguistic heritage.
I suggest an alternative to both these extreme positions, and that is towards what I call an ‘assertive progressive integrationist strategy’. This is not that difficult given that Sikh thought very much resonates with contemporary values of the enlightenment and global concerns around such things as social and economic justice, the rights of minorities and women’s, and of course the need to protect the environment and the challenge of climate change. And so in some sense, there was never a more appropriate moment in human history to be assertive about Sikhi. But tragically, not only have we failed to articulate the progressive and holistic philosophy of Sikhi to non Sikhs, we have failed to grasp the wonderful expansive and dynamic beauty of the teachings of our gurus for ourselves. Integration is a two way process, an exchange of practical wisdom, based on open dialogue with the Other; something that Guru Nanak did for most of his life ( ‘gain gosht’). And it is by taking inspiration from Guru Nanak that we too as fellow travelers should have the confidence to believe we too can/should leave a mark on our adopted societies. A fantastic and highly visible example of this is the way in which Sikhs are being recognized for their kindness through the establishments of Langars on the streets of European cities. Whether it is flood disasters in Northern UK or near the or the recent Bataclan massacre in Paris, Sikhs were there to offer love, affection and food.
Though we now have some groups, such as Khalsa Aid, who are well organized to respond to incidents such as these, the Gurdwaras, other than on festival days, rarely engage in outreach activities and generally still harbout a degree of mistrust towards non Punjabi communities. We need to break free of this parochialism and this can only happen if we embrace a new transnational Sikh identity that is free of the feudal influences of traditional Punjabi culture.
This will require research and scholarship that is able to distill the essence of Sikhi and apply this to every field possible, from the humanities, through to science engineering, health and social care, medicine, social policy/politics/economics to environmentalism and human development. This will also require us to establish Centers of Excellence in Sikh Dharma, where Sikhi is taught, evolved and practices. The centers should not be seen as ‘outposts’ of Indian culture and civilization but as a wonderful thread that is woven into the fabric of society. Indeed, the strength of Sikhi is and has never been measured form of numbers, but, as so magnificently demonstrated by guru Teg Bhadur Ji, by the profundity of our deed, ethics and commitment to serve.
And so as we see the unfolding of a very worrying migrant crisis in Europe, and real and imagined concerns about violent extremism and Islamic terrorism, and of course the rise of right wing anti-immigrant parties we face an uncertain time as a minority within a minority wherever we go. But if we remain steadfast to the timeless teachings of our Gurus, which were not about promoting religious ideology or dogma, but a technology for living in harmony with both the natural world and fellow human beings, then Sikhi can be like the invisible thread that holds the garment together; we can be seen as progressive force in society that enables peoples to come together, east together, share together and live together.
We need to discuss about Pre Marital Sex and Gurmat.
Why is it wrong as per Gurmat ?
What are the advantage of not having Pre marital sex.
What are the advantages of NOT having premarital sex? You really need to ask such a silly question? Okay I will explain it to you. 1) It is forbidden as per Gurmat (which really should be good enough for a Sikh. 2) It prevents the spread of venereal disease which can lead to sterility and death. 3) It prevents people and let’s face it it is mostly young people from becoming too over -sexualised in a society which is already exposed to the ridiculous expectations portrayed in pornography (both soft as well as hardcore). These unfeasible expectations can then cause trouble in marriages as people can then start comparing one partner against another as well as their own fantasies and fetishes which have resulted from an oversexualisation. 4) What greater honour can a man give to his wife and a wife to her husband on their wedding night than the exchange of their virginal virtue? This helps both partners within the marriage grow together at the same sympathetic rate and makes the sexual act a part of a loving relationship instead of just physical gratification. This leads to a deepening of understanding between man and wife in that they are sharing an union only between themselves. 5) Sexual repression is a massive problem in the Indian male and has led to a deeply mysgonistic attitude towards women and the acceptibility of sexual assault and indeed rape. Pre marital sex has to be reinforced as being a taboo in order to make males appreciate that sexual intercourse with a woman is a reverential and consensual act only.
6) Such a casual and irresponsible attitude to sexual intercourse also leads to unwanted and unplanned pregnancy with all the health connotations to the foetus and indeed mother as well as the consequence of legal (arguably immoral) and illegal abortions of newly created human beings whilst still in the womb. 7) Premarital sex is almost always detrimental to the female partner a she can be both stigmatised as a loose woman and unfortunately ‘used’ as one by a male who might profess love to get her into bed but then having done so outside of marriage resorts to hypocritical Indian patriarchal thinking that this woman is not suitable to be his wife and mother of his children. 8) Pre martial sex can also lead to blood feuds with outraged families seeing their family’s honour being violated when pre-marital sexual activity is treated as simply a pastime of gratification. This also applies to adultery where you are betraying the trust of your spouse. So just like the best advice is to be monotheistic for your spiritual well-being, be monogamous for your and physical / mental health and social-economic well-being.
RS “Na ko beri nai begana, saagal sangh ham ko ban ayee”
Here is my facebook – feel free to engage via that media.
https://www.facebook.com/gurnam.s.khela
RS – First of of maximum respect for offering a thoughtful and robust defense of your position. If we need more thinking people like you prepared to engage in this kind of dialogue, I am sure we would be in a much stronger position than we currently are in the world, but particularly in Panjab.
As for your response, I respect your insight into Marxist ideas, even though you reject these. I also applaud your honesty in asserting that you feel that Sikhi is consistent with capitalistic modes of production and that progressivism and feminism are toxic; of course, I totally disagree with these sentiments.
I will restrict my final comments to the very last paragraph in your initial response which I think reveals a major flaw in your position.
“Basically, Europe is a Godless, Marxist state. Is this superior “Gora” culture honestly what you think the Sikhs should be emulating?”
First of all Europe is NOT a ‘Godless, Marxist state.” Indeed, in most European countries Christianity is the official religion of the state, even in republican France, the separation of church and state is not 100%.
Second, as you will know with the fall of the Berlin wall, Communism was massively defeated and economic system of Europe, as most of the world except possibly North Korea, is what is called Neoliberal-Capitalism. This is also sometimes referred to as ‘free Market Fundamentalism. We all know this sytem is wreaking havoc to peoples, cultures and ecologies throughout the world.
Third, regarding ‘Gora’ culture, if you had carefully considered my point here and the nuances in my argument, I was actually warning against uncritically adopting western ways. My argument was to survive we must adapt but must NOT abandon the essence of Sikhi which should not be confused with Panjabi culture, which itself is in a constant state of flux. Put another way, we must not think about black/white, Gora/Panjabi, Western/eastern as options. I think it is this very same strategy that has enabled, as you say, Sikhs to be successfully integrated into US, Canada, UK and other societies.
My fourth and final point is that it is somewhat ironic that you’re stereotype of ‘Gora culture’ as promoting ‘pre-marital sex, disrespect of parents and elders, live-in relationships, etc. are the norm’ and you general anti-libertarian, pro patriarchy stance sits comfortably with the very ideology you seem to be most critical of and that is Islamism! Perhaps you too would like to instigate a ‘Sharia’ law!
To conclude, it is clear that we are not going to agree on much, but I really and truly want to thank you for engaging in this dialogue and I hope it will inspire others to engage in what is clearly a critical issue for Sikhs worldwide as we are a transnational diaspora community seek to find our place in what seems like a rapidly changing and in places very unstable world.
“I will restrict my final comments to the very last paragraph in your initial response which I think reveals a major flaw in your position. “Basically, Europe is a Godless, Marxist state. Is this superior “Gora” culture honestly what you think the Sikhs should be emulating?” First of all Europe is NOT a ‘Godless, Marxist state.” Indeed, in most European countries Christianity is the official religion of the state, even in republican France, the separation of church and state is not 100%.”
European countries on paper may be Christian and a majority of their population in many may identify themselves as Christian, but the real state “religion” in charge of people’s lives is actually secularism and political correctness.
Separation of Church and State in France and rest of Europe may not be completely 100%, but it’s enough that the Church is effectively powerless and has no influence in shaping state policy. To me, that fulfills the definition of a Godless state.
As per the Marxist bit, I meant that from a cultural Marxism perspective, not an economic one (even though one could make an economic argument too given the absurd tax rates in some European countries).
“Second, as you will know with the fall of the Berlin wall, Communism was massively defeated and economic system of Europe, as most of the world except possibly North Korea, is what is called Neoliberal-Capitalism. This is also sometimes referred to as ‘free Market Fundamentalism. We all know this sytem is wreaking havoc to peoples, cultures and ecologies throughout the world.”
I agree with you that Neoliberal-capitalism is wreaking havoc on peoples and their cultures. I am NOT a supporter of globalization or laissez-faire capitalism. Capitalism with no reasonable moral and ethical bounds is just as destructive to society as people themselves who place no reasonable moral and ethical bounds on themselves.
I am in agreement with ethical/compassionate capitalism as per Gurbani. I am aware that in extreme excess, for elites, money basically becomes a tool of influence to manipulate people and shape public policy and further increase their wealth. Gurbani also speaks against the excesses of wealth and helping the poor, which we are both in agreement with, the difference between us is how we should go about achieving this.
Perhaps unbeknownst to you, much of what the social policies the elites have pushed forward from the last few decades (feminism, secularism, open borders, no-fault divorce, “gay marriage”, etc.) is very much in line with Marxist ideologies, which has resulted in the destruction of the family unit and Church in Europe. In turn, this makes integration for Sikhs in Europe itself very challenging as some of our social customs are not compatible with theirs (but at the same time, not so incompatible that we don’t get along with them), the very problem you’re proposing solutions for.
Open borders is just a scheme to destroy nationalism and European culture (which you write against in the paragraph I quote above) and get cheap labour. The so-called “Migrant Crisis”, is a direct result of the “Syrian War”, which was manufactured by US/UK elites to destabilize that part of the world purely for economic gain (just like Iraq, Libya, etc.).
This is not a conspiracy theory. Anybody who says so either just has a limited understanding of how the world works or is a willing cooperator.
“My fourth and final point is that it is somewhat ironic that you’re stereotype of ‘Gora culture’ as promoting ‘pre-marital sex, disrespect of parents and elders, live-in relationships, etc. are the norm’ and you general anti-libertarian, pro patriarchy stance sits comfortably with the very ideology you seem to be most critical of and that is Islamism! Perhaps you too would like to instigate a ‘Sharia’ law!”
This paragraph is absurd.
First, pre-marital sex IS against Gurmat. This is undebatable. It’s not possible to be pro pre-marital sex and be a Gursikh at the same time. I will focus only on Pre-marital sex as for that we have hard statistical data.
In France (and similar to Germany, Spain, and other European countries), only 6% of the population thinks pre-marital sex is morally unacceptable, whereas in India, that number is much higher at 67% given the prevailing culture. In rural villages, that number would be at 90%+. Unfortunately, stupid Punjabi singers and Bollywood is slowly brainwashing the urban youth into believing otherwise.
Hence, it’s NOT a stereotype for me to say that pre-marital sex is the norm in Europe when IN FACT, it is indeed the norm in Europe. This also includes Punjabis in Europe who’s parents didn’t teach them Gursikhi values or have thrown Punjabi cultural norms out the window. Their children have drifted away from our values and over-integrated and their subsequent generations will integrate even further. Basically, it’s a decadent culture absorbing another.
“…and you general anti-libertarian…”
Here, you are mistaken. I am indeed libertarian, but within the bounds of Gurmat. Just because I don’t approve of pre-marital sex as per Gurmat, doesn’t mean I’m not a libertarian. This is a leap of logic and makes no sense. What you probably meant to say is I’m anti-liberalism, in which case, you indeed would be correct. Having absolutely no bounds on one’s personal liberty basically means one is an anarchist.
“…pro patriarchy stance sits comfortably with the very ideology you seem to be most critical of and that is Islamism! Perhaps you too would like to instigate a ‘Sharia’ law!”
Pro-patriarchy doesn’t automatically mean I support the Islamic concept of patriarchy, which is VERY different from the one prescribed per Sikh Gurus and Sikhi is based upon as I’ve described from my original post. Again, another leap of logic that makes no sense.
Patriarchy comes in varying shades and degrees, and the Gurmat concept of society, which is based on tribal patriarchy, greatly empowers women WITH regard for morality and ethics. Feminism “empowers” women WITHOUT regard for morality and ethics, and is antithetical with Gurmat.
In fact, even European women themselves are starting to go against feminism in ever increasing numbers (just check out Twitter and Facebook), as they recognize the destructive effects of second-wave and third-wave feminism on the family unit and society. Many former feminists are now prominent anti-feminists. Check out this recent article that takes the whole “Migrant Crisis” into perspective from a woman, who understands the problem clearly:
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/329241-europes-tragedy-merkel-immigration/
Feminism was nothing more than an economic strategy crafted by the elites of society to increase the labor supply in the workplace and lower labor wage rates (greater profit for them) and also doubled the taxable income base for government. With that accomplished, it’s now just a power-grab by upper middle class white women and a male-hate movement. Feminism is simply not sustainable and is an evolutionary dead-end. Any society that gives women more moral agency than men is ultimately doomed.
“Perhaps you too would like to instigate a ‘Sharia’ law!”
That’s a ridiculous statement. In the end, what people end up doing is their own choice. However, not all choices are equally “good” overall for self and society and each choice comes with its own pros and cons, strengths and weaknesses and after-effects.
Given all the information, in the end, it’s up to people for themselves to decide what’s best for them.
Nice engaging in dialogue with you too and all the best.
Much kudos to you RS and to Gurnam Singh for your thought provoking discourse. It is a pleasure to read my fellow Sikhs both engaged in rational if delightfully highfallutin argument and with having respect for each other’s views when they cannot agree. I salute you both.
My pleasure. Also, I do have a tendency to occasionally fly off the handle due and use sharp language (due to young age), sometimes I wish I can edit out after I’ve posted it but I can’t on this system we have on Sikh24.com. Controlling my krodh is still a work in progress.
It’s okay for Sikhs to intellectually bang turbans with each other to share opposing ideas as long as we don’t resort to fighting with each other like two opposing tribes of baboons as in the video you’ve probably seen at a recent incident in a Gurdwara.
Also, M Singh – would it be possible for me to follow up with you via email? I wish to send you and Dr. Gurnam Singh a few more ideas, but prefer to communicate privately.
Thank you and Bhul Chuk Maff.
Dr. Gurnam Singh – I don’t want you to view me as your adversary; believe me, I’m on your side. We both understand the prevailing issues the Panth is facing, yet we have very different approaches and underlying ideology for guidance to solve some of these issues.
We need to remember that we have to all leave this Earth and go into SPACE one day with in 4 billion years from now .
This Earth is going to burn up from an expanding SUN
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_the_Earth
We need a healthy mix of Separation and Integration as we
jointly Explore the Grand Universe we live in.
Really?! This is the best you can up with to comment on such a lively and intellectual discourse – ‘we must go into space because the sun will blow up in 4 billion years time’. This is what happens when the RSS is allowed to replace school textbooks in Indian classrooms.
Thank god there are some sane people who recognize marxist. Sympathy for those who might slice your head one day.
The author needs to take off his pink Marxist sunglasses and get a reality check. Migrant populations from Muslim countries do not integrate with their host countries because their culture is not compatible with European culture.
“The current media hysteria about recently arrived Muslims refugees from Syria and Afghanistan committing sexual harassment against young (white) women at festivals in Köln, Germany, and in the Swedish capital Stockholm has added fuel to the existing concern about non-Anglo Saxon immigration into Europe.”
Actually, the mainstream media tried very hard to cover-up the mass rapes that occurred in Cologne, Germany on New Years Eve. The lid was finally blown off due to social media because people have had enough and the news became too big to just sweep under the carpet by the traitor Merkel, who, from the perspective of protecting her own civilization, is basically a Badal of Europe.
Muslims have routinely demonstrated that they cannot assimilate into their host nations, so to lump all grievances of whites against Muslims as “racism” is intellectually dishonest. White European countries have gotten along well with Sikhs and other migrant populations. Europeans have every right to close their borders to Muslim migrants to protect their culture and way of life from a hostile and invasive force.
“…and that in some small or large ways these may be undermining the important progressive values of equality and liberty that have become a hallmark of modern European societies.”
Europe is basically a Godless, Marxist state. It’s nothing that Sikhs or Sikhism should aspire to emulate. Birthrates in Germany are the lowest in the world and many other European countries also extremely low, below replacement levels. Equality and liberty, when taken to extremes beyond commitment to family, Truth and God, lead to the morally, ethically and spiritually bankrupt society that Europe is right now.
“The solution to this problem and to secure the future of the Sikh nation, it is reject both the cultists who talk about the corrupt nature of Western ‘Gora’ culture, and also the assimilationists who have little regard for their cultural and linguistic heritage.”
I don’t believe in cultists, but Gora culture (pre-marital sex, live-in relationships, etc.) in fact actually IS corrupt, and we MUST keep it out of Punjab.
You seriously need to review your understanding of Sikhi.
Sikhi and Marxism are NOT compatible.
Dear RS
I am a little surprised by your assertions and it seems to me that you have either read my article with your own shade of sunglasses, or you haven’t quite understood the nuances that I am trying to draw out. So let me restate my main thesis. Sikhi as an articulation of universal truth (sat) is eternal, beyond culture and place. However, Sikhs are always of a place and time. So the challenge is how can we extract the eternal, universal essence of Sikhi and adapt that to whatever society we live in. Unless we do that, we will mistakenly assume that certain rituals and cultural forms are true Sikhi (Such as dressing up in a certain attire) and miss the bigger picture, or we will assimilate and become obliterated. I am offering an strategy for integration where we can shape the world around us based on the universl principles of Sikhi. After all, that is all that the Gurus were interested in, namely, ‘Sat’ . SO, I am usure why you find this to be objectionable!
As for the suggestion that Sikhi and Marxism are incompatible, though my article was in no way about this question, I would be interested to learn what you understanding of Marxism and then make the case. As far as I understand it, Marx actually had immense respect for religion, but that most religion operated to obscure the real reasons for people’s misery and distress, which were material. Here is the famous quote from ‘Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right’
“Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
You might understand this differently, Marx, was expressing ambivalence about religion, viewing it primarily as “the soul of soulless conditions”, the “opium of the people” that had been useful to the ruling classes since it gave the working classes false hope for millennia. But at the same time he felt that religious social movements, did manifest a form of protest by the oppressed and downtrodden classes against the oppression they were experiencing.
Now if one looks at the lives and struggles of the Guru’s then they too were critical of orthodox religion and in particularly the Brahanical system that justified social inequalities based on gender and class/caste as well as the priestly classes (Pandits and Sadh’s) who were peddling superstitious beliefs and rituals as a way to overcome material and social misery.
I would also suggest you have a look at the Gaddar Lehar and how they were motivated by an understanding nof the revolutionary ideology of Sikhi. Here is a good introduction to this movement. http://www.nriinternet.com/A_Z/G/Gadar/SIKHS/2013/GADAR_LEHAR.html
Last, as for the contemporary Sikh struggle, for which 1000’s of Gursikhs, including Jarnail Singh Bhindranwala, we must not forget the basis of the struggle were demands in the Anandpur Sahib Matta, which extols the virtues of socialism. Have a look at the following link and Resolution 3 in particular which explicitly mentions the ‘ secular, democratic and socialistic concepts of Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh’
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anandpur_Resolution
So, my argument is not based on emotion but evidence and I would very much welcome your response to convince me otherwise.
wahe guru ji ka khalsa wahe guru ji ki fate!
“I am a little surprised by your assertions and it seems to me that you have either read my article with your own shade of sunglasses, or you haven’t quite understood the nuances that I am trying to draw out.”
Ahh the “nuances” reply implying you’re more intelligent when your argument spectacularly collapses.
“As far as I understand it, Marx actually had immense respect for religion, but that most religion operated to obscure the real reasons for people’s misery and distress, which were material.”
Marx had “immense respect” for religion? That’s absolutely false and you know it, as does any learned man reading this post right now.
Any honest intellectual would agree that at best, Marx had a somewhat mixed opinion of religion, but overall undoubtedly had a negative opinion of religion. The only good he saw in organized religion was that in times of crisis, it would bind the masses of people together into an organized, grassroots movement against government.
“As for the suggestion that Sikhi and Marxism are incompatible, though my article was in no way about this question, I would be interested to learn what you understanding of Marxism and then make the case.”
Why are you putting the onus on me to prove that the ramblings of an Atheist and Godless man, whose misguided and lofty philosophy in its various forms, whose implementation via communism (which is inseparable from Marxism) is responsible for the death of countless MILLIONS around the world, are compatible with Sikhi? Sikhi is in itself is a cohesive, holistic philosophy and doesn’t require the patronage of Marxism, feminism or any other ideology.
“Now if one looks at the lives and struggles of the Guru’s then they too were critical of orthodox religion and in particularly the Brahanical system that justified social inequalities based on gender and class/caste as well as the priestly classes (Pandits and Sadh’s) who were peddling superstitious beliefs and rituals as a way to overcome material and social misery.”
On a basic level Sikhi and Marxism have some in common just like Christianity and Islam have some in common, but when looked at in depth, they are worlds apart. You are basically distorting Sikh teachings to fit your Marxist worldview.
The Guru’s philosophy and Marx’s philosophy are different on so many levels. I’ll just talk about from an economic/wealth perspective. From an economic/wealth perspective, the Gurus believed in ethical capitalism, that is, capitalism within the bounds of Gurmat. “Kirat Karo” is a core tenet of Sikhi, “Vand Shako” (sharing with the needy) is also a core tenet, and “Dasvand” is encouraged but not mandatory. Other than that, you are on your own. No shortcuts. The Gurus do not believe in any radical wealth redistribution. They also believed in private property, self-sufficiency and with the formation of the Khalsa, self-sovernerity.
Marx, on the other hand, believed that capitalism should be replaced with a system where people should work for the common good (basically communism) and he was also an ardent believer in radical wealth redistribution. “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” is straight from the Communist Manifesto. As history proves, these schemes always fail as the lowest classes of society, given the choice of going out to work to earn a living, or sitting and home and doing nothing, will prefer the latter at the expense of everyone else. This is why 36% of the US population, the most powerful and prosperous nation on Earth, are on welfare and that number is actually rising every year as more people are just opting out of the system entirely. It’s basically a welfare state. In Communism, everything is owned by the Government and there is no private property, no self-sovereneity. It’s nothing more than a glorified worker’s Union, and we all know unions always end up killing their host corporations.
“Here is the famous quote from ‘Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right’ “Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.”
Yes, I’m aware of that quote. According to me, Marxism is the opiate of the so-called intellectuals, who sitting in an ivory tower all their lives at the taxpayer’s tab, and not having not done any REAL WORK out in the REAL WORLD, think they know what’s best for the rest of humanity. The problem is Marxists don’t understand the mindset of the very people they’re trying to “help”, not much unlike a business that doesn’t understand its customer base: both invariably fail.
The problem you don’t understand is that communism, whenever it’s been tried (as it always has been and still is in remaining countries), without the infinite capacity and hope that comes with the infinite God and for the infinite God, becomes a mere movement of man and hence, consistent with the nature of man: imperfect, selfish and self-rewarding.
Marx never understood this, but our Gurus actually did.
“Last, as for the contemporary Sikh struggle, for which 1000’s of Gursikhs, including Jarnail Singh Bhindranwala, we must not forget the basis of the struggle were demands in the Anandpur Sahib Matta, which extols the virtues of socialism. Have a look at the following link and Resolution 3 in particular which explicitly mentions the ‘ secular, democratic and socialistic concepts of Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh’”
The only reason that “secular, democratic” wording was used in the Anandpur Sahib resolution is because India is (at least in theory) a secular democracy. “…socialistic concepts of Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh”. Again socialistic was specifically used because the Congress party (the ruling party at the time) is basically a socialist party. I would say the Gurus were actually libertarian (within bounds of Gurmat), but did have some socialistic ideas. Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and the 1000’s of Gursikhs that died during the Sikh Freedom movement did so first and foremost for Sikhism, not Marxism, communism, socialism, democracy or anything else. Most Sikhs actually aren’t even aware of the Anandpur Sahib Resolution.
“The solution to this problem and to secure the future of the Sikh nation, it is reject both the cultists who talk about the corrupt nature of Western ‘Gora’ culture, and also the assimilationists who have little regard for their cultural and linguistic heritage.”
I’m not a supporter of Babas or cultists, but this is the most ridiculous thing you wrote (and you conveniently ignored when I called you out) in your original post. First, you must understand that Sikhism is based on tribal patriarchy with elements of egalitarianism, and not full-blown egalitarianism as you believe. In particular, the Gurus obviously understood the plight of women in society at the time. That is, women should have same access to spirituality, access to education, access to do a job, access to start a business, access to serve military, etc. and most importantly, EQUAL RESPECT as men. The Gurus, at the same time however, caution men who let women get the better of them. They make it clear that the man is the leader of the household, yet at the same time the man must treat women with respect. Proper Gursikh women who grew up in a healthy environment also understand this and respect the Guru’s wisdom.
All else aside, if you honestly think that the “Gora” culture, is a superior form of culture to Punjabi culture (for all its flaws), you are either living in a cave or you seriously need to get your head examined. I understand that Punjabi culture has its many issues (female infanticide, dowry, etc.) but each of these issues was addressed by our Gurus. It’s still leaps and bounds ahead of “Gora” culture where pre-marital sex, disrespect of parents and elders, live-in relationships, etc. are the norm.
Years of toxic progressivism and feminism has emasculated Europe’s men and basically destroyed the family unit, divorce rates are high, birth rates are far below replacement levels, new generation is morally deprived and ethically bankrupt. Basically, Europe is a Godless, Marxist state. Is this superior “Gora” culture honestly what you think the Sikhs should be emulating?
“So the challenge is how can we extract the eternal, universal essence of Sikhi and adapt that to whatever society we live in. Unless we do that, we will mistakenly assume that certain rituals and cultural forms are true Sikhi (Such as dressing up in a certain attire) and miss the bigger picture, or we will assimilate and become obliterated. I am offering an strategy for integration where we can shape the world around us based on the universl principles of Sikhi. After all, that is all that the Gurus were interested in, namely, ‘Sat’ . SO, I am usure why you find this to be objectionable!”
I don’t have any objections to you carrying out the Guru’s mission in earnest.
You must understand that the current “Gora” culture of extreme liberalism, is a cancer that even religious “Gora’s” themselves despise. Unfortunately, it is starting to slowly creep into Punjab as well in a few of the large cities. Punjab itself has liberalized considerably from what it was even just 30 years ago. I’m sick and tired of people constantly bashing Punjabi culture as if it’s the most demonic, barbaric, Pagan culture in the world and the virtuous “Gora” culture is some sort of gold standard every other culture in the world should aspire to.
In terms of the mess that is in Germany right now, that is the end result of toxic progressivism and feminism for the past few decades. The German men’s families are broken, the men have no motivation to fight against the Islamic invasion that is occurring right now in their country in support from German elites and globalists.
If one is a true Gursikh, the answer to your original question, “Separation or Integration”, really becomes a matter of intelligent strategy and balance.
The Sikhs of Canada have done an excellent job of simultaneously integrating and yet keeping Sikhi values and Punjabi cultural customs (just the good ones) alive. Cities with large Sikh populations like Brampton and Surrey are doing just fine. At the same time, Sikhs as a minority, are also doing very well in the political arena.
The Sikhs of UK are also very active in promoting Sikhi and Sikh values as you mentioned. Basically, Sikhs need to continuing doing what they’re doing, get more active in politics and other positions of power so we can influence global policy.
The Gurus intentionally made Sikhs to stand out from everyone else by giving us our distinct identity. We were meant to stand out and lead. At the very least, we must not let go of our identity. At the same time, it’s very easy for Sikhs to integrate into any host culture because we don’t view every non-Sikh as our enemies and our culture of tolerance and pluralism is very compatible with “Gora” culture. The problem is largely a cultural problem with the Islamic world where non-Muslims are viewed as “kaffirs” and punishable by death as per Shariah law and they treat their women like garbage.
Sorry if I came across harsh in my posts as you are much older than me so I should still speak respectfully.
Bhul Chuk Maff.